I’ll start this off by stating my IPD of 63.5mm is normally a great thing for me when it comes to VR.
But right from the start with Pimax 5k+ I have struggled with eye strain and going cross eyed.
Today however that kind of changed and I’ve made some interesting discoveries which I’m not really happy about.
The first is at 120hz I’ve almost eliminated my eye strain. Not completely but it does not make me cross eyed and I’m able to use the headset for iRacing. But to do this I’ve had to adjust the physical IPD adjustment to the lowest setting which makes the headset physically uncomfortable especially to my nose and in addition to the physical adjustment I also need to run -1.5 IPD offset. With these settings it is not perfect but the vision is much more natural especially compared to what I’m about to mention.
This is where it gets very strange. I’d expect to be able to change to 90hz and use the same IPD settings. But switching to 90hz causes me immediate eye strain with the same IPD settings and makes me go cross eyed. Those IPD settings are still wrong at 90 hz and I actually can’t find a comfortable setting at 90hz. Also at 90hz the vision is distorted, curved, like I have a fish bowl on my head and I can still see the curved distortion in the small FOV setting. The small setting also causes me eye strain. 120hz in normal FOV is flat in comparison and this is why I say it feels more natural.
And I have another issue. In 120hz mode when I play iRacing, my fps is capped at 90 fps.
This experience has made me believe the software is a factor in eye strain. IPD is clearly being measured incorrectly but there is also the issue of how the same setting that works for 120hz does not work in 90hz. There should only be one correct IPD setting.
Pimax 5k+ SN204. Pitool 249 FW 255. Windows 10 Pro 1909. firstname.lastname@example.org. AMD 5700XT. 24GB DDR3 RAM. Have tried Radeon 19.12.3 and 19.12.1.
Of course I understand the differences in FOV between the modes. That is why I also checked and mentioned the small FOV setting in 90hz as even though that setting is smaller than 120hz normal, at 90hz in the small FOV I still get that same eye strain and distorted curved like vision that is not present in the larger 120hz FOV at normal FOV setting.
I’ve seen others mention something similar in regards to the IPD measurements being wrong and needing to set the Pimax to the smallest physical IPD even though our IPD is actually physically larger. I read a post yesterday where a user mentioned needing to set the Pimax 3mm smaller than his actual IPD but for me it seems like I need closer to a 5mm smaller setting. Later when I have time I’ll try and find those posts so I can tag those users in this thread. I know their posts are old so they would have been using a different Pitool and Nvidia but perhaps we can find some other common theme.
I’ve now read that first post in the first link and a linked post from that post, the rest will need to wait until later and @Heliosurge any support will most likely need to take place after Christmas at this point because from here on I will be busy.
But to address what I have read in those links which @risa2000 is posting. Please try and understand what I am saying different to your preconception about what I am saying.
What I am trying to explain to you is not that the smaller IPD setting offers a more clear image (yes it does but that is just an added bonus). What I am telling you is the larger setting is causing me discomfort and damaging my vision. What I am also telling you is the same IPD setting at 120hz and 90hz does not produce the same result. That is I have found a setting at 120hz that does not adversely effect my vision and is comfortable and that setting is below my measured IPD. But what I am also telling you is if I try that same setting in 90hz it causes me physical discomfort and causes me to go cross eyed and alter I take the headset I can no longer see until after I go to sleep. I have not found any IPD setting at 90hz that does not result in my vision being damaged and discomfort.
I will read the rest when I have time but based on what I have already read it seems the Pimax canted design might be a significant contributing factor but the way it has been implemented currently in 120hz is superior to the way it is implemented in 90hz.
What I am saying is whatever you have done currently with PT249 and FW255 in regard to SN204 5k+ at 120hz is superior to the method it is employing at 90hz. It is not perfect but better.
FWIW. I have 3 VR headsets that I have used on PC. They are the PSVR, the Lenovo Explorer and the mentioned Pimax 5k+. Of those the PSVR is the superior headset for comfort, using it actually improves my vision. I have a very weak prescription for reading glasses and can’t read small text on labels without them, but if I use the PSVR exclusively it improves my eye sight so that my glasses are no longer needed or effective and I can read labels without my glasses. The Lenovo Explorer is a neutral headset for me. It does not cause discomfort but it also does not improve my vision. The Pimax 5k+ does adversely effect my vision, currently at 120hz this is minimal but I can’t use 90hz at all as it causes discomfort and worse it actually damages my vision. After using 90hz I have blurred double vision and this state will persist until I sleep. This is very uncomfortable and the only way I can see after using 90hz is to close one eye to focus. I have spent a lot of time trying various IPD and offset combinations and not found one that results in a comfortable experience.
But I also think an important consideration is how at 120hz the image looks natural and like looking through a flat window but at 90hz even at the small FOV setting the image looks distorted/curved like I imagine I would see if I wore a fish bowl on my head.
Yes. I actually tilted it before I found out it was a thing. But unlike others who have it out more at the top I found it better to be out more at the bottom.
The way I have it tilted was to add another piece I had as a spare from a helmat. I tried a few different configurations and this one was the superior for optics.
The only negative of this is the bottom is superior to the top now. The top collects sweat and becomes wet and uncomfortable, the new bottom stays dry and comfortable at all times.
As for the idea of adding a counter weight, by just pulling a little on the rear I can see how this will work to improve the pain to the bridge of my nose but it seems like it will allow some light to come through around my nose.
Considering the experiments I have tried so far it does have me a little concerned that the comfort kit might not actually improve my experience but more importantly considering the comfort kit also seems to use the same horrible material as the current padding but more of it, I’m not sure comfort is an accurate name. I really don’t find sweat filled material touching my face comfortable.
You may observe discomfort when you have the IPD set incorrectly (or have other alignment problems), but it could hardly damage your vision. If it would, people like me, who have been wearing glasses for 40 years and are “damaging” their vision with every new pair, would be blind by now.
It is possible that your lenses or panels are misaligned, or the IPD sensing is misaligned, or there is a software bug that causes the misalignment. The only thing I can think of is either:
test it on someone else
test another P5k+ (possibly at a different place/machine)
The symptoms you describe seems severe enough to simply ignore them.
What is your measured IPD and what is the IPD setting which is comfortable for you in 120Hz mode?
The optics remain the same in either mode, so my guess is you suffer some software (firmware) bug, which causes the misalignment for one mode, while keeping it correct for another (as you are the first who reports this here, while there are already others using 204 headsets).
The other possibility is the AMD 5700 support is buggy. For that a check in another machine with a different GPU would be helpful.
The short answer is you are wrong and if you care to understand why you are wrong please research strabismus and the very real danger of blindness associated with strabismus.
You incorrectly assume every person is the same. Could you imagine a bodybuilder telling a person with Osteogenesis imperfecta saying “you could hardly damage your bones from lifting weights, if you could people like me who have been lifting weights for 40 years would have broken all their bones.”
But to answer what have misspoken about in what I have just quoted keeping in mind I am not an optometrist and I am only repeating what my optometrist told me. Glasses do actually degrade the vision of certain people, that is why it is important to continually go back to the optometrist as your eyes change because wearing the incorrect prescription will damage your eyes quicker than the correct prescription. I was informed when I was given my first pair of reading glasses that by wearing reading glasses it would cause me to require full time glasses within a few years. It is now a few years later and the optometrist was correct, I now would benefit from full time glasses.
But as I already stated. One thing I have discovered is the opposite can also happen. If I exclusively use the PSVR and combine it would good sleep and good diet, my vision actually improves.
So to understand why you are mistaken it might help you to understand what is actually wrong with my vision. As far as magnification goes not much, my reading prescription is very weak, +0.75 in one eye and +1.25 in the other. It is physically uncomfortable for me to wear any generic reading glasses above +1.5. But this mild difference in my eyes results in mild esotropia. Now if you think incorrect alignment of eyes is safe please read about strabismus because you are very wrong. Untreated strabismus can cause blindness in one eye. You beliefs and design philosophy are not just very dangerous to people who have strabismus but potentially dangerous to every person because you are effectively forcing exotropia.
So what you need to understand is I have small angle strabismus. And like many people with small angle strabismus it went undetected for almost 40 years of my life as I had better than regular vision and there has never been any sign that I had any form of visual impairment except for one that no one could ever explain to me. I have never been able to use binoculars as they caused double vision.
Like many in my case of small angle strabismus my eye muscles would simply correct my alignment and it went undetected. That is until I got older and started to get double vision on the job which effected my ability to perform my job. So I had my eyes tested and was informed that unfortunately the only treatment available to me currently is to reduce the strain on my eyes with reading glasses. By using reading glasses it reduces the strain on my eyes which reduces fatigue allowing my eyes to maintain alignment. Once my eyes are fatigued they lose their ability to maintain alignment and then I can no longer see until I go to sleep and recover my strength.
The danger with strabismus is if left untreated there is the very real potential of blindness in one eye.
And you think it is safe to intentionally induce exotropia with this canted vision VR design.
And just so you know strabismus is common with an estimated 4% of adults thought to suffer from it. That’s a lot of people who can potentially go blind in one eye as a result.
Yes that is what I also assume but the standout to me is the different experience in 120hz mode vs 90hz mode.
So yes as you have explained the panels and lenses are misaligned but as you explained it is by design. And as I have explained, at least for people like me this is dangerous but it may be dangerous for others as well and based on my understanding of strabismus I expect in the long term this might become evident.
However there does seem to be some kind of software issue that is working in my favour here as 120hz is more usable than 90hz. If there is a mistake in 120hz then I really don’t want it fixed because I can use the headset.
I will be doing experiments with the headset now that I understand the design. My experiments will be to account for the misalignment. Unfortunately without knowing the exact specifications to work out the angles it will be a matter of trial and error and a potential misalignment or potential software issue also means any specification that could be provided to me might be wrong. But what I need to try and do is set the Pimax up so I am not using it canted as designed and so my eyes are able to stay parallel which it would seem I am already close to doing in 120hz mode.
There is no way for me to test another as I do not know any other person nearby who has one.
Testing it on someone else is unlikely to help at this point. I am confident at this point the canted design is the most significant issue at play here for someone who has mild angle strabismus.
I’m not sure what you mean by this.
I’m about to get my eyes tested again in the new year so I’ll update this if my memory is mistaken. IIRC my measured IPD is 63.6mm. I have lost my prescription slip but that is what I recall and that is the measurement that works in every other headset for me.
Currently in 120hz mode I am using the Pimax with the physical IPD at the smallest setting possible and an IPD offset at -1.5. It is not perfect but it does not aggravate my condition or cause double vision or loss of vision.
EDIT: I foolishly decided to do a few minutes of testing while I wait for my son. In 120hz the best results are somewhere in the 60mm-60.5mm range with IPD offset somewhere between -1.5 and -3. I think it is best that I stick with 120hz for now because I did just a few minutes of testing in 90hz and now I’m having vision issues and I need to drive in a few minutes.
Yes I think this seems to be the case. But perhaps it is for the best for now because it means I can use my headset.
I think what we have identified here is the design philosophy of the Pimax is potentially flawed and potentially dangerous at least for people with my condition.
That said I am determined to make this work for me because there is no alternative offering such a large FOV.
If there was an alternative, knowing what I know now the Pimax would be listed for sale already. I previously incorrectly assumed a canted panel design where panels would be canted but the lense design would use refraction to keep the eye alignment correct. I believe a design that induces exotropia intentionally is a very dangerous experiment. And now at least Pimax know of one case so far where an exotropic design can cause pain and vision problems to a person who has mild angle esotropia.
I don’t think this can be a quick experiment and the time of the year is not advantageous. It can’t be quick because as already mentioned once my eyes become fatigued I lose my vision and can’t continue until the next day. So it needs to be a nightly experiment and may take many nights for me to find the best settings. Now that I understand the design I already understand what I will try in an effort to correct alignment for my eyes.
I’d like to suggest an opportunity for Pimax. Please consider designing a headset that maintains correct alignment of the eyes in the future. No one on the market is matching your FOV and I understand the canted panel design may be an integral part of achieving the result. But it is possible to engineer a headset that uses a canted panel design while keeping the eyes parallel as they should be.
Right now I am about to leave the house. Today I will attempt to book an appointment for my next eye exam but it is a busy time of year. I will continue my experiments for now and keep you updated on my results. Then after I have gathered more information hopefully I can work with Pimax to help you understand what is going on in my situation and to work out if there is an issue with the software or with the headset. Or potentially create a workaround for people like me.
I think it is important to understand that this condition is not only common, it can often go undetected for a long time in people. If you understand this it becomes a potential explanation in understanding and troubleshooting others who tell you they get better results with a lower IPD setting.
Please do research strabismus, please do try and appreciate the potential for vision loss in at least some effected individuals. Your hard line approach of “it doesn’t effect me so it’s not a problem” is in the least potentially dangerous for others but possibly wrong for all. There have been no long term studies done of the long term effects of using an exotropic designed headset. This is something I will discuss with my optometrist when I get my eyes checked to at least understand the potential implications for me. But like I said, my initial effort will be to use the headset incorrectly by miscalibrating the IPD and IPD offset in an effort to keep my eyes parallel. We have already established I am unable to use the headset with the correct IPD setting. That causes loss of vision for me in a very short time of use.
Alright. I have been incorrectly assuming that you have otherwise healthy eyes, because you did not suggest otherwise. You were claiming that “(it) was damaging your vision”. I claimed that statistically people are “damaging” their vision by wearing glasses (I know, because I wear them too), yet the damage is an acceptable trade-off. If it was severe enough as you suggested, most people would be blind by now.
No, I assumed that statistically the most people are similar to me, i.e. when they wear glasses they wear them to correct myopia or farsightedness (or astigmatismus) and not strabismus. I might have been wrong though.
PSVR (and I assume Lenovo headset too) uses “classical” parallel design with the lenses and the panel(s) being coplanar, parallel to the face, and perpendicular to the line of sight. Similar to how the prescription glasses are normally worn. There is a reason why the prescription glasses are worn (and designed) this way.
EDIT: Another aspect which may affect the way you perceive the impact of the headset is the virtual focal distance which may be different between PSVR and Lenovo.
It seems that PSVR kind of stands out from the crowd by being designed to focus at infinity. Which means if your far sight is good it actually keeps your eyes far focused and may have a positive impact. Compared to that HTC Vive, Rift CV1 or Pimax are focused to 1-3 m distance.
Pimax uses canted design and from what I read about strabismus (thanks to you mentioning it), I can imagine that this particular design (not only the canting, but also the type of lenses Pimax uses) can actually encourage it.
I am not an ophthalmologist nor an optician, so I am not going argue about it here. What I would suggest to you is print my post about the optics (Near vs Far IPD mentioned above) with the diagrams about how the optics in Pimax is set and show it your ophthalmologist. He should be able to tell if the design presents a health hazard for your condition or not.
I can imagine why you set it like this, but if your real IPD is ~63 mm the chances are, you are setting it wrong, and while you may feel a better comfort visually, you are straining the higher level faculty, by presenting it the incorrectly rendered image (with a wrong IPD = with the wrong geometry).
Considering your condition, I would simply stop using Pimax and consult your doc.
This is what I expected. I knew the PSVR uses an infinite focal length as this is the recommended standard and I was under the impression most if not all headsets would use this standard as it is the safest focal length due to keeping the eyes in a constant relaxed state. I immediately suspected the Pimax was using a shorter focal length when I started to use it. I did not realise other headsets also use a shorter focal length and I am surprised to see you mention the Rift as I thought I first read about the recommendation of using an infinite focal length in papers written by Oculus long before I got VR and back then I suspected it would be beneficial to use VR which was first confirmed in medical articles I read on this subject and then confirmed when I got VR.
What might also help is if I knew the angle of the lense/displays. I’m trying to work out if it will be possible for me to create a workaround.
Yep and I understand your recommendation.
But as I said I am determined to try and make this work due to there not being an acceptable alternative at this point.
And this is where it gets interesting. I already have reached the point of unacceptable eye fatigue tonight and can’t continue my experiments but I have had a breakthrough and at this point I am confident there is an issue/difference in the rendering between 90hz and 120hz which based on what you have told me would indicate 120hz is incorrect but this issue is working to my advantage.
Tonight I tested wearing glasses.
I have 2 pairs of glasses. Both have the same prescription. They are both technically reading glasses but optimised for a specific use so each has a optimal focal length of about 50cm. One was optimised for my old sim rig which had my monitor placed at 55cm from my eyes but this set was my home pair to be used for reading as well. This pair are a flat thin rectangle design and are not ideal to be worn in the Pimax but they have been well looked after and the lenses are in excellent condition. My second pair are my old work glasses designed for welding. They have exceeded their expiration date and have enough micro scratches to have lost optimal clarity. But they are a wrap around design (Matador Mojo) and perfect for wearing inside the Pimax. Unfortunately they are also prone to fogging up in the Pimax.
But here is what I discovered. When I wear my glasses 90hz is somewhat usable, perhaps usable but I have not found the most ideal settings yet. With glasses the clarity in 120hz is also significantly improved which is no doubt contributed to by the short focal length of the Pimax.
But as previously mentioned the required IPD for 90hz and 120hz is different. This should not be the case but it is what is happening. It would seem the most ideal setting in 120hz for me with glasses is a manual adjustment to 60.5mm (before any offset is applied) and then using an offset of between -0.5 to -2. I have not worked out the best setting yet and will say more below. At 90hz again an offset of -0.5 seems to be ideal but with this offset I am able to use an IPD much closer to my actual IPD when I am wearing glasses.
However it should be mentioned it did still cause eye strain trying these settings. And when wearing glasses, at the moment I am getting eye strain in both 120hz and 90hz. I think possibly because I have not found the most ideal setting to work with my glasses yet.
The issues I currently face with wearing glasses in the Pimax. My main reading glasses that are clear are not ideal to wear in the Pimax. My old wrap around glasses are no longer clear. Both my glasses fog up inside the Pimax. I have not yet found a setting that doesn’t result in some eye strain when wearing glasses in the Pimax.
Wearing glasses results in less eye strain at 90hz than not wearing glasses.
Wearing glasses results in more eye strain currently at 120hz than not wearing glasses.
I can currently wear no glasses in the Pimax at 120hz with minimal eye strain which allows me to race in iRacing using the Pimax.
But I have superior clarity in the Pimax when wearing glasses most likely as a result of the focal length as my glasses are reading glasses and because my glasses magnify the vision. Unfortunately this currently still causes eye strain.
I hope and believe I can find an optimal solution to use the Pimax with the right pair of glasses or lenses designed specifically for Pimax use.
For the moment if there is an issue with 120hz mode that is not correct, it is working to my advantage and allowing me to use the Pimax. This combined with the issue of a 90fps cap being applied while in 120hz are both working together to allow me to race with an acceptable experience. I am thankful for these issues at this time as they are allowing me to use the Pimax. They might even be useful to help Pimax improve the headset for some users.
I am not Risa, obviously - sorry for butting in… :7
Yes, minds were changed to favouring putting the focal length around the sort of distances users would most likely have to in-game objects most of the time, during negotiating/inspecting/interacting with them, approximating a natural vergence/accommodation relationship for such situations, even though it obviously becomes very wrong when looking at the horizon.
In addition to the infinite focus thing, I believe the PSVR also does not use Fresnel lenses (right?), so they should throw fewer unfocussed stray light distractions into your eyes, too.
That does indeed sound very much like a software issue, yes - no reason the refresh rate should alter the imagery.
But please don’t forget that Risa is not saying one should sit there and deliberately go wall-eyed – nor parallel, for that matter – ones eyes will still be expected to converge on whatever one is looking at, just like in the real world, but I can easily imagine that if one have eyes that are prone to “stray” to begin with, they might very well favour seeking out the clear spot in the centre of their respective lens independently, over converging, resulting in them attempting to go walleyed.
-The fact that the clearest views are out to the sides for each eye, with the canted design, and tend to lead to different focus between the eyes, is a problem already for people without strabismus, causing even them to screw the lenses too closely together for a correct projection, skewing the world. Wouldn’t have mattered if the image had been clear all the way across the lens, but that is a hard goal to reach.
In addition to the matter of focus; Wearing glasses in the HMD prevents one from getting as close to the lenses as otherwise, exacerbating the problem, since if one did try to maintain as correct as correct a projection as possible even when too far away, one would need to increase lens spacing higher than one’s IPD (…and this is what I do, for maximum comfort), to make the lens axes still intersect one’s eyes, alas reducing the range of clear vision inwards, toward one’s nose even further, since the view straight ahead is now even farther from the centre of the lens.
You might ask your optometrist’s impression of this VR supplemental therapeutic training:
I have not been to the optometrist yet. Bad time of year.
Which is interesting because in 90hz mode this is sort of what happens. That is with glasses it seems the better IPD setting is closer to what my actual IPD is but without glasses I can’t get it small enough to be comfortable. But in truth neither are ideal and I’ve kid of given up trying to get 90hz working for the moment, at least until after I talk to the optometrist but I would like to go as informed as possible.
Something else I have noticed is with glasses everything is magnified and that is why it is clear. But everything is too big because everything is magnified. No doubt as you say glasses are changing the IPD and this is possibly messing with world scale so in addition to the magnification the glasses provide I think I may also be seeing things larger due to the IPD setting. IDK, I’m just thinking out loud and considering this might be a possibility.
I do think if I get custom made glasses for this application they need to not provide any magnification. I know that will most likely not provide the increase in clarity I am currently seeing with glasses. My priorities I think should be on changing my focus to infinity and correcting the difference in my eyes. I imagine this will provide the most comfortable experience in the Pimax.
I am also thinking perhaps it might be best to wait to see the optometrist until after the next Pitool is released. @Alex.liu mentioned an issue with AMD cards where the wrong json is being loaded. Perhaps I should wait until this is addressed so I have a better idea of what my needs might be.
At the moment I am actually enjoying 120hz mode without glasses with the settings I mentioned earlier. With the current issue my game only needs to render 90fps as a cap is being wrongly applied. I’m not getting excessive eye strain with this setting, it looks mostly correct with only minimal edge distortion which I am tuning out with normal use. I’m getting good results in iRacing and I don’t think I could run at higher than 90fps anyway. So there is a very real chance that if a future Pitool fixes these issues it might make the Pimax unusable for me. In that case I’ll keep running the current broken Pitool because it works for me. But I am hoping the new Pitool when it fixes these issues actually changes 90hz to be like my 120hz mode is currently so I get a similar user experience and can use that. Time will tell.
I doubt I’ll have anything else to offer this thread until after a new Pitool is released with the AMD fixes for me to try.
@jojon thanks for the link for the VR treatment. I will discuss that with my optometrist. I am not sure if it is something that can be effective for me. I don’t actually have lazy eye. I have small angle esotropia. I also have slightly different vision in each eye. The slightly different vision is typically a cause of strabismus. The treatment for this is typically to wear glasses. There are also sometimes surgical options but it depends on the individual. If it is a case of a muscle imbalance surgery to correct this is the most common type but in some cases like mine where there is a vision imbalance contributing to the condition, laser eye surgery might help. But I am not in a position currently to pay for surgery.
I thought the link might be worthwhile, because of the brief period of residual “retraining” you mentioned getting after a session with your PSVR. :7
Have long wished for focus adjustment in HMDs - preferably individually between the lenses. The old Rift DK1 came with three sets of lenses in mounts of different height, and the Samsung Gear VR had a dial, from what I’ve heard, but other than that, sadly nothing.
As a little anecdote: With my old Vive, I had an issue with everything looking too small, to me, in the headset (…and I saw quite a few complaints about this from other users, too) – something that was corrected with the magnification from +1.5 reading glasses (oddly enough my optical sharpness was good both with and without). I ended up modifying the Vive, to get that benefit without having to wear glasses (shimmed the lenses up 1.5mm, increasing the screen-to-lens distance).